Mehr als Quote: Female Leadership neu gedacht

00:00:01: Karola A warm welcome – we’re back.

00:00:04: Eva-Maria We hope you have a lovely day.

00:00:07: Karola Today’s topic is female leadership, and I’ll be kicking things off because I’ve got a really profound question. First, I’ll ask Eva-Maria a few questions, share a few of my own thoughts on the subject, and then perhaps pose some questions to you all – with a genuine request that you do get in touch if you have any ideas on the matter. But you’ll find out exactly what it’s all about in a moment.

00:00:26: Eva-Maria But to sum up – and may I just add something – we’d ask you anyway: if you have any questions that interest you and that we haven’t covered yet, please do send them to us at any time. We’d be very happy to look into them and will also be happy to answer your question in our podcast in future episodes.

00:00:42: – Karola Exactly. And also your feedback, your impressions – how you’re getting on with it, and what you’d like to see more of. It doesn’t always have to be questions; yes, we’re also – how shall I put it? – putting forward things that are important to us, and thankfully we’re realising that they’re important to you too. It’s really lovely to experience that. We’ve developed these little rituals now – yay! – and we’re working towards buying champagne flutes so we don’t have to drink champagne from sparkling wine glasses until things get underway. But as I said, today’s topic is female leadership, and the champagne stories are actually very much connected to that. At the very beginning – well, at the end of March – I organised an international conference, online, by women for women, where the main theme was: what can we actually do, how can we, as women, support one another across cultures, and what do we need, what do we have to develop to achieve this? That was the overarching theme. And it was very much about cultural intelligence and safety, which is a major issue for women. And I took the opportunity there to say: ‘Female leadership needs new role models.’ The whole conference was in English. As you know, I also gave a keynote speech for it, in which I argued that the feminine and masculine principles must be in balance so that we can move towards a bright future.

00:02:18: Karola So how can we women once again give men credit for what they’re good at? This is a huge topic right now within feminist discourse. My partner and I talk about it a lot too, and we have some really lovely conversations. And the more I think about it, the more I feel able to put my observations out there. We’ve developed feminism. It’s invaluable. We can vote. We can decide for ourselves whether we want to go out to work. We can lead independent lives. We still have a huge pay gap between women and men. There are women who sometimes behave and act like ‘strong women’ – as if they were better than men. In my generation in particular, there are quite a few examples of women who were successful precisely because of this – and only because of this, it must be said – especially in their careers. But I think it’s time to try something new. I’ve noticed that young women are doing a lot in this area. I’ve also noticed that young women sometimes question feminism. And I’ve noticed, even in my own generation, that we’ve neglected a few things where we’re actually so much better. Take a relationship, for example: in a heated discussion, we’re generally better equipped and trained to create a safe space where the unnecessary heat—the heat that’s needed can stay, but the unnecessary heat can be thrown out of the window.

00:03:58: Karola And simply replying, ‘Women act out of their egos too, but I want this right now,’ isn’t enough. Now, my question to you. I’ve given such a long introduction so that I’ve set out a bit where all these questions are coming from. There’s a 20-year age gap between us. That’s quite a generation gap, and that’s a good thing. Absolutely. I find that totally enriching. Now, speaking specifically from your generation – not the 20-year-olds, but those in their 40s – I hope I’m allowed to say that. You’re just over 40, I’m just over 60. How do you feel about feminism? What do you notice? Can you take anything from it? Can you put any of it into practice in a positive way? And where might an outdated understanding of feminism be getting in your way?

00:04:53: Eva-Maria So yes, I’m part of the generation that attended university courses on gender and similar topics. I think I can say that I’m a positive feminist. I’m not a huge fan of that militant feminism, even though it was, of course, necessary in the past to assert oneself and tackle issues in that way to a certain extent. And I believe that we – or at least my generation – shouldn’t pass too much judgement on how things were in the 60s and 70s… I often get to speak to wonderful women who’ve also built successful careers and so on, for whom all these issues we talk about quite openly today – things that have become completely normal for us, such as being allowed to work or to open our own bank accounts – were simply not a given. ‘Allowed’ sounds so bad. So the fact is that things which are simply normal and taken for granted in our world at the moment simply weren’t a given back then. And it’s also true that, for example – if I’ve got my facts right – women in Switzerland weren’t allowed to vote until the 1960s, and there were issues like that. There were still quite a few issues back then, and even if you look at neighbouring countries – which, it must be said, aren’t that far away from us – there really is only a small group of countries in the world where women’s rights are actually upheld to this extent.

00:06:15: Eva-Maria So don’t pin me down on the exact percentage – I don’t know it off by heart – but I’d say that in the West, in the Midwest, that’s where this is the case. To a certain extent, that used to be the case in America; I strongly dispute what’s going on there at the moment. But that’s something we’ll talk about another time. But if you look at Africa, if you look at Asia, if you look at other cultures, it’s certainly the case that feminism, as we understand it today, and women’s rights, as we understand them, are a long way from what we actually experience day in, day out. And whilst I was in Namibia, I spoke to a farmer’s wife who told me they have a farm right near Windhoek, over 3,000 hectares – a large area there, although by local standards it’s not that huge; it’s just huge by our standards here. And she told me that all her children are studying in Germany, because they also have German passports – they’re fourth-generation Germans living in Namibia – and because the courses of study available, so to speak, in Windhoek or rather

00:07:21: Eva-Maria that the qualifications one can obtain in Namibia and South Africa, whilst excellent, are not recognised in Europe. And, above all, her daughter, at the age of 18, naturally went to university in Germany, so to speak, because life in Namibia would otherwise not be possible to that extent for a girl or a woman. It also has a great deal to do with the fact that, as white Namibians, so to speak, they face the issue that they come from Western culture and cannot quite fit in the way that many other residents of Namibia do – the so-called ‘black population’ – and that, as a result, they tend to keep to themselves to a certain extent. This isn’t meant to imply exclusion or separation, but simply because many cultures are very, very different from one another. She put it that way herself: she can’t imagine standing at the hob and bringing up six children. She also wants to live her life as she has learnt from her parents and from the people around her. And I believe that here in Austria, Switzerland and also in Germany, we women have a great, great many opportunities. But of course, there’s always, always room for improvement.

00:08:34: Eva-Maria Well, I’m not a fan of it either, as you mentioned earlier – I know quite a few people from the older generation who’ve had very successful careers, but in doing so simply gave up a great many feminine traits, because they couldn’t afford to show any weakness or emotion anywhere, as otherwise it would simply have been interpreted differently by the group of men they were surrounded by. What sometimes shocks me a bit and also drives me mad is when you’re at a workshop – or, to take another example, not just me personally, but I’ve seen it with many female friends and colleagues too – travelling to a conference somewhere in the world, and in the evening around the table, the conversation turns to what else people get up to, whether they have a family, whether they have children. And one of the first questions a woman gets asked is: ‘So where are your children now?’ And that’s a question I find really interesting, because very few men are asked that question. And I think there’s even a podcast dedicated to this now, as well as, of course, a number of books that highlight how questions are phrased when they’re asked of women and how they’re phrased when they’re asked of men.

00:09:52: Eva-Maria I’m not one for saying that everyone has to be the same. I just think that certain rights should apply to everyone, that there should be a certain degree of fairness. And last year I attended a gender diversity workshop, where a colleague – who also conducts academic research in this area – summed it up very, very well. I’d like to send my best wishes to Lisa at this point. And she put it so beautifully: many white men are now getting upset about quotas on certain boards and the like, because certain privileges have been taken away from them. But it’s not rights that have been taken away from them; it’s just privileges that have been taken away. And a privilege is something I can be given, and it can be taken away from me again. It’s not something I’m entitled to, something that’s due to me to that extent. A privilege is something I’ve been given as a gift, if you like. And it can be taken away from me again. And as for men – not all men, of course; I have a wonderful husband by my side, and you, Karola, also have a wonderful husband by your side, as far as I know. So we have some absolutely brilliant men by our sides, yet there are still men who feel threatened by the fact that women are making a name for themselves, that they’re more intelligent – and the figures from the universities tell us exactly that: that, if I’ve got it right off the top of my head, women actually achieve more degrees with a higher average mark than men, but interestingly, when it comes to the higher echelons of the workplace, it’s usually the men who are favoured – or at least men are often favoured.

00:11:28: Eva-Maria Last year, I ran a workshop with women – women in leadership roles, and women, so to speak, who want to get ahead and take on leadership roles in politics and business. And the focus was very, very much on speaking to women who are already in senior management positions, or who aspire to be there. And they always talk about their glass ceiling. That there’s, so to speak, a ceiling up there where a group of men exchange ideas and make decisions, and women are never allowed into certain circles – or are allowed in, if I’m using the correct tense and form here. And I find that simply very, very sad, because I also find it very sad for the men, as they would then simply see that many perspectives can be rethought, that new solutions are needed in our times, and that things simply cannot continue on this scale with the old structures as we have experienced them so far.

00:12:31: Karola I think that’s just the way it is. We all agree on that point. That’s the lovely thing – even many men really do agree on this. What I feel so strongly – and that’s why I’m moving straight on to the next question now – is: what defines us? In other words, what is it that we can contribute that truly enriches things? In very concrete terms, what is it? I’d say what we’re really good at – again, as a group; not every single one of us can do it, but generally speaking, it’s something we simply learn well through our socialisation – is creating safe spaces, maintaining a positive emotional atmosphere when things get heated. We’re quite good at that, though we don’t always realise it. I see it time and again, both at work and in private life, that women are quite good at this. But when it comes to a conflict with her husband, she almost expects him to be the one to handle it. To me, that’s the new version of the prince on a white horse. I mean, I can earn my own money, but when things get rocky, you’re the one who has to sort it out. And I find it so awkward, because we’re simply good at it. Because it’s really difficult for men.

00:13:50: Karola Well, there’s so much of it – as has been mentioned – this great insecurity, in the sense of fragility, that prevails amongst men when they feel their self-worth is being called into question. There’s a very high level of sensitivity there, which points to an insecurity that I can’t always explain, and which, above all, I don’t attribute to them. In other words, I have to be careful not to assume that they’re strong in that regard, even though they really aren’t at all. Because, as we all know, if I expect someone to do something they’re completely incapable of achieving, then I’m creating a situation where they’re overwhelmed rather than finding a solution.

00:14:25: – Eva-Maria Absolutely. Well, I think I’ve got a really good example from one of my clients. I’m the one who advises this business owner, and he came to me recently and said: ‘Tell me, what am I still allowed to say and what am I no longer allowed to say? If I’ve got a female apprentice, am I allowed to tell her – when she turns up in the morning wearing make-up – that she looks pretty today? Or am I not allowed to say that?’ What’s appropriate and what isn’t? And this is a man in his sixties who, of course, has always been there as the managing director of his company, has a few employees, and certainly isn’t some backwater type or anything like that. He’s always been interested in innovation, has asked himself lots of questions, is open-minded, has travelled extensively and so on. Yet he comes to me for coaching and says: ‘Please tell me, what am I still allowed to say? What’s still appropriate, and what isn’t? And how can I make sure that the young lady doesn’t misunderstand this or take it the wrong way?’ Of course, this applies to male-dominated teams and male-dominated professions as well.

00:15:31: Eva-Maria When certain jokes are made that make women or young women feel uncomfortable, this is something men don’t always understand, because they’ve always done it up to that point. So it’s incredibly important to simply say: ‘Right, that’s enough – no further. And can we please discuss this on a different level?’ What I’ve noticed very clearly is that when women are part of a team or in leadership roles, it’s usually other women who move up too, or rather that women can bring a certain balance to the system. Once they’ve learnt to do that for themselves – and, of course, want to do so for themselves. And yes, I agree with you that when we talk about women – in inverted commas – as a collective, if you can generalise like that at all – I’m always a bit cautious about that. It’s definitely something that, in theory, we should learn through our socialisation: that we create spaces where people can feel at ease and feel safe. We can certainly do that to a certain extent, if we want to and if we’re willing to get involved. I also believe – or am convinced – that women, if they want to, are better at communicating, and can be better at recognising and acknowledging the needs of their colleagues and bringing those needs to the fore.

00:16:51: Eva-Maria And I also believe that women are better at it—better, let’s put it that way—though of course there are men who are very, very good at it too. I wouldn’t want this to be portrayed in such a way that we can focus on what unites us. That we can create a sense of togetherness, where the team spirit is perhaps emphasised more than this ‘I’ve done everything, I’m leading the way’ attitude, as we discussed in our last podcast. If, so to speak, I lead the way with a machete and always sort everything out, so to speak, I can’t expect my staff to think for themselves and ask, ‘What should I do for the company?’ I’m exaggerating a bit here, please forgive me – that’s not to say that a staff member doesn’t think for themselves. But I do believe that women do have the ability to engage people even more effectively, connect with them even better on an emotional level and in terms of their needs, and bring them together into an agile, effective and efficient team – and also lead in a different way to how men might, perhaps in a more intuitive manner, although I don’t want to suggest that women are more intuitive than men; that’s just another one of those clichés and preconceived notions.

00:18:09: Karola Oh, I think we’ve simply developed a few things differently. We pick up a lot through our upbringing; that’s down to socialisation, not something we’re born with. I think a lot of it is down to life experience, a lot of it is just the same. It’s so fascinating to me when you’re talking about all this now—I hope I haven’t interrupted you. It’s fine. If I were to summarise it now, I’d really love to—well, my thing is, what defines us as role models? I mean, how could we develop a female role model—a ‘role model model’, let’s call it—that we women can hold on to? So what is it that constitutes our real strength – not just, on the one hand, as I’ve seen so often, being ‘better than men’, but also, on the other hand, challenging these unquestioned assumptions? If you’re asked – if your client asks, ‘What am I allowed to say?’ – then there’s also the part where I have to make it clear that a woman in a group of men isn’t automatically the assistant. And where do I create that sense of connection? What I’m hearing from you now – and I agree with this wholeheartedly – is that when it comes to creating connections, yes, we’re really good at that.

00:19:21: Karola Creating safe spaces when things get heated – even there, I can still say, here you go, I urge you to take note: there are tips and tricks. It’s a skill that needs to be developed. But fundamentally, it’s innate in us, and you don’t need to throw that away. It’s worth its weight in gold. Because then you don’t end up clashing with one another. Another thing that really strikes me is that if you’re often the only woman—not Eva-Maria, but you, dear listener—the only woman in a meeting full of men, there are two or three rules to follow. One of them is: you’re the one who takes the minutes last, not first. Don’t do that! You’ll immediately be relegated to the role of assistant. You’ll be sidelined.

00:20:07: – Eva-Maria Nor are you the one who clears away the coffee cups afterwards.

00:20:10: – Karola Not even the one who brings the coffee beforehand. And it’s not a matter of principle, because we’re so unwelcoming. There are other women there. Men, you see, have this territorial behaviour; they have to sort out first who’s the alpha, so to speak, who’s the strongest. I always say, it’s a case of who can pee the best against the tree. And dogs definitely do three laps. Just picture yourselves in the middle of the meeting table and let that play out. But we have territorial behaviour too. And when women are among themselves, it quickly turns into: ‘Shall I bring you a coffee? Oh, you’re dressed lovely. ‘Oh, your nails look lovely.’ Or ‘I’ve baked a cake.’ And so on. If you’re the only woman and feel the need to do the same thing you’d do with a man, you’ll automatically be pushed into a certain role. So it’s better to hold back and channel your territorial behaviour differently. That means asking a non-aggressive but very pertinent question relatively quickly. In other words, demonstrating your competence.

00:21:11: Eva-Maria Yes.

00:21:11: Karola It can be a bit of a shock sometimes, but it’s a very good way to give someone a fright.

00:21:15: Eva-Maria Yes, it’s also simply about demonstrating your competence. And I’m sure that if you’re the only woman in a room full of men, you’ve already proven your competence at least 1, 2, 3, 5 or 10 times over – otherwise you wouldn’t be sitting there. Because, in my view, this isn’t a cliché, but rather my experience: women have to be at least as good as men.

00:21:38: – Karola And we have to keep getting better at that – there’s no point in sugar-coating it, that’s still the case. But there’s no need to dwell on injustices and so on either; it’s simply a fact. Exactly. One reason why many women – apart from the glass ceiling – don’t make it to the top is that we aren’t quite as, shall we say, unconditionally loyal. Men in their networks and cliques know that there are moments when they have to be loyal, even if they don’t fully agree with it, because it benefits them in the end. We women really haven’t learnt that and aren’t prepared to do it. I know loads of women who, when the scramble for the very top begins – often around the age of 45 – end up setting up their own businesses because they say, ‘I’m not playing that game.’ ‘I’m not prepared to sell myself or my values.’

00:22:31: Eva-Maria That’s absolutely right. I know a few women myself where that was exactly the issue. They’d been with a company for a long time, part of certain cliques for ages, but at a certain point it simply came down to: ‘To whom do I show my loyalty, and why? And are these still the values I can stand behind, and where I can still tell my grandchildren, “This is what I stood for”, or “This is what I didn’t stand for”?’

00:22:57: – Karola And I don’t have an answer right now to the idea I’m just throwing out there. I keep asking myself – I’m someone who’s been right there myself. Would it have been good – and this is the question I’m actually asking myself – would it have been good to stay for those few years when I couldn’t put all that into practice? Before that, I was able to put a lot into practice, but then for a while I couldn’t. And it felt very unfair. It wasn’t just about my ego; it simply wasn’t in line with my values. Would it have been better to stay and see it through, and then take that step up to a position where I could have introduced the new culture – could have, might have? The answer: I don’t have an answer to that. I don’t know if I could have done it. Back in my day, all these issues were covered in management training and coaching sessions. I did my first one over 20 years ago – I took part myself – but it wasn’t that widespread back then. So I would say—to anyone going through this, that might be the answer: please seek support so you don’t wither away along the way.

00:24:04: Eva-Maria You need people around you who back you up, who support you, who are there for you, who listen to you, and who offer you tips and tricks in a positive way, as well as teaching you a craft. Because leadership is a craft. Yes, it’s not something you can just, well, do. There are people – natural talents – who can do it like that, but for most people, it’s a craft that can be learnt. Please seek out support; join a women’s network that supports you, that stands by you, and where you can grow together.

00:24:36: – Karola Yes, you need that sort of—because that’s a whole story in itself. I’ve just summarised that part earlier: we’re good at maintaining personal space, we’re good at building connections, we need to be mindful of our personal boundaries—so that we really do establish them—and then there’s the part we always underestimate, which I call ‘sitting round the embers’. That is, creating that warmth, that shared warmth.

00:25:03: – Eva-Maria The shared campfire. And again, it’s about – so to speak – not always being the one who puts the wood on the fire to keep it burning, but having lots of people around you working together to keep the fire flickering and alive.

00:25:23: – Karola And then all the other issues aren’t such a big deal, because the funny thing is, you mentioned it with the children, and for me that would be a sort of conclusion now. It’s part of being a woman that you get asked that. Yes, I had a dog until two years ago and was away a lot for work, and whenever I talked about my dog and mentioned that I was living on my own at the time, people would always ask where the dog was. A man would never have been asked that either. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but there’s a video from Denmark where men are asked the same questions as women. And one way to deal with it in a very humorous way is to regularly compliment men on their outfits. I do that – it’s really endearing. I mean, I only do it when I mean it. I’m not trying to make fun of them or provoke them; I just want to give them the feeling that they’re being noticed and praised for their clothes. And depending on the situation, that can be right or wrong – just like with the young lady.

00:26:31: Karola If the boss does the same with the young apprentice, that’s great, because then he sees the person. And if it’s about looking at a woman simply because a woman is a pleasure to look at, and so on, then he’d be better off not doing it.

00:26:44: Eva-Maria Exactly.

00:26:45: Karola And that’s how simple the answer is. Just to wrap up, here’s my take on it too. Eva-Maria’s nodding now – she’s already put it perfectly, I’m just adding my two cents. Yes, please, please do speak up.

00:26:56: Eva-Maria We look forward to your input and your definition – or rather, what you think makes a really good role model for a woman – and we look forward to your answers and your questions on the subject. On that note, we’ll leave you with warm regards for this week. Have I… Have I forgotten anything?

00:27:19: Karola You haven’t forgotten anything – I’ve just thought of something that ties in with this. Our next episode is on leadership in uncertain times, and that fits in so incredibly well because there’s one thing we women are good at: we’re usually quite good at dealing with uncertainty.

00:27:35: Eva-Maria Absolutely, and that’s what we’ll be talking about next time. On that note, enjoy the episode, and lots of love from Sakotnik and Flucher.

00:27:46: – Karola Bye!