Flow: Wenn Klarheit, Kreativität und Führung leicht werden

00:00:15: Welcome to Sakotnik and Flucher.

00:00:18: Champagne for the soul, clarity for the mind. We combine intelligent conversation with poise, wit and genuine substance.

00:00:25: We talk about leadership and self-leadership, about freedom and power, about joie de vivre, success, meaning and depth. And also about how we can live and lead consciously, effectively and with ease.

00:00:39: A format for people who seek clarity, embrace responsibility and long for more substance in conversation. Sakotnik and Flucher. For everyone who loves depth, thinks big and wants to remain fully human. It’s great to have you here.

00:01:00: We wish you all a wonderful day. We’re back, we’re sitting at the kitchen table again, it’s another glorious day and we’ve just treated ourselves to a coffee on the terrace. We’ll let you in on that now.

00:01:14: Yes, we treated ourselves to a lovely cup of coffee on the terrace in the sunshine. Just now. We’ve now arrived in summer. We were just talking about how I’ve come back from Africa in the last few days and had a wonderful time there, and how I’ve been able to come straight from—from Africa, so to speak—well, actually it’s more like autumn there already—and into the Austrian summer, and that I’m really enjoying the fact that everything is in bloom right now. And if you’ve ever been out on Karola’s terrace, you’d know that everything is in bloom and that Karola has an absolute green thumb. I think I’m allowed to let that slip here. And that we had a quick chat out there about what we could talk about today. We promised you in the last few episodes that there would be an episode on the topic of flow, and so we thought we’d just go ahead and do it today. Or what do you think, Carola?

00:02:06: I’m in. Being in the flow is one of the best feelings you can have. Someone reminded me of a story. I was one of those students – a very good one. I really enjoyed studying; I loved learning new things, but I didn’t like studying at home. I really enjoyed doing my homework, but just sitting there cramming or memorising things – I found that pretty boring. I didn’t have to do a great deal of it, it has to be said, but I had a ritual every afternoon to get into the flow. That meant I went into the room where I did my homework. There were two rooms, not our bedroom. I was in the living room, put on my record – I was about 13 or 14 at the time – Billy Joel, my absolute favourite, and listened to the record back then, what are they called, vinyls?

00:02:58: Yes, exactly.

00:03:00: Put it on, listened to it. And during the penultimate song, I started to sit down, getting into that feeling of having sung along before, or even just listened. It was quite varied, sometimes I played along on the piano too. And then I sat down and started on my homework. And two hours later, I’d finished. That was the absolute best sense of flow ever. Namely, doing something that interested me, but preparing for it without feeling pressured, and then, feeling fulfilled at having created something, stopping.

00:03:38: Exactly, and that’s essentially what flow is all about: letting ourselves, so to speak, sink into something, so that we have the opportunity to immerse ourselves in an activity with complete, total concentration and without distraction. I believe that’s one of the biggest triggers for flow that we know of, and it’s also the easiest way to lose that sense of flow again. That you really tackle a task without distraction, without external influence, a task that is important to you, that you want to do, that doesn’t overwhelm you but also doesn’t underchallenge you, and where you devote your full and undivided concentration to this project for a certain period of time. Actually, our brain is designed so that we enter flow states automatically. And to put it bluntly, you could even go so far as to say that we’re all a bit addicted to flow. And flow is, of course, something that can definitely be addictive, just as Karola described from her childhood. Once you’ve experienced that feeling of being able to enter a flow state – how you get there, what possibilities you have – and that you can then accomplish a great many things in a short space of time, producing truly wonderful results.

00:04:53: We were just having a browse through one of your books a moment ago – if I may call it that – the book *Being Boldy Human*, which Karola wrote a few years ago. And I recognise this from my own writing, from the books I’ve been fortunate enough to write, and from the texts I keep writing. I, too, have my own rituals for getting into the flow of writing. For me, it’s usually the case that I always look very closely at what time suits me best to be, so to speak, in my peak mental state. For me personally, it’s the morning, but that can be a bit different for everyone, or for every woman, of course. It might be the evening. I know people who really, really enjoy writing and working in the evening. I’m not like that at all; I’m more of a morning person in that respect. It’s simply a matter of finding out when I’m at my mental peak – when I can work well, when I can work with focus, when I have good concentration – and then blocking out all distractions: switching off my mobile, closing all email windows, not closing the computer when you’re writing or doing similar tasks, but simply putting all notifications on hold, so to speak, switching them off, so that you aren’t constantly being interrupted.

00:06:02: Because as soon as you’re interrupted, you come out of that ‘flow tunnel’, as it’s so nicely called. And there is this so-called ‘flow cycle’, as it’s so nicely called – essentially that first phase where you can prepare yourself for the flow with a ritual. It might be, as you say, putting on a record or listening to music. Some people like to dance, others like to do breathwork, as it’s so nicely called – in the world of yoga it’s called pranayama, or breathing techniques – to get into that state. Some people need physical exercise beforehand, others need their coffee. I, for example, am someone who gets up, makes a cup of coffee and does a few breathing exercises. I also quite like to jump about a bit; a bit of hopping does me good to get my head fully back in the game. And then I just sit down and stay seated for a moment. I’ve switched off my mobile and the like, of course, so I can simply write, devote myself to the task that’s important to me, and then get started. And there’s also that initial struggle, as it’s so nicely called in the flow cycle, where there’s simply that moment, especially when you’re writing or doing something, where you think, ‘Today, this whole thing just isn’t working at all.’

00:07:20: The best thing to do today would be to get up now and just pop round the corner or do something completely different. It’s a perfectly normal state of mind. I’d advise you to stay seated for now, to just stick with it and get through the first 5 or 6 minutes. Maybe even 10 minutes sometimes; it varies depending on how you’re feeling that day. And what’s very helpful for getting into active flow states is perhaps setting yourself the goal, for a certain period – say a month – of doing the whole thing at the same time every day. Our brain simply loves patterns. Our brain loves it when there’s a certain repetition, something it can rely on. So that the brain has the chance to know, ‘OK, from 8 am to 9.30 am we’ll write, then we’ll do our emails, then we’ll do this, then we’ll do that.’ To apply this ‘timeboxing’ – which we’ve already discussed – a little bit, so to speak. And ultimately, that’s exactly what the flow is built on. And with the flow, it’s also the case that you get into the subject matter and then it’s simply the case that you feel as though you’ve written or

00:08:33: are moved. It is often the case that when we are in a state of flow, when we are deeply immersed, we are no longer aware of what is happening around us; that we can immerse ourselves very, very deeply; that we have the feeling, for example, when you’re writing a text right now, that it isn’t you writing the text, but rather the text is being written by you, and afterwards you think to yourself, simply wow, I’ve written this text, that’s what came out. Or even if you’re currently developing a new concept for your staff or simply need new visions or new ideas, it’s usually the case that you have the opportunity here to simply let the whole thing happen. You also enter the process without any specific intention. That is also one of the flow principles that are essential. And what is also very important with flow principles, especially for anyone who manages staff or leads a team, is that everyone, so to speak, has the opportunity to take a certain amount of personal responsibility, that they feel they have control over it in a positive sense, that they have the opportunity, for example, to redesign their workspace to suit them. It doesn’t always have to be a big thing. That doesn’t mean the whole office has to be redesigned, but it might mean, if you have an employee who likes cacti, that you simply have a cactus on their desk.

00:09:53: Or if an employee prefers to write with a particular pen, simply provide that pen, and ensure that their desk or their workspace is personalised as much as possible, so that the employee, so to speak, has the opportunity to discover and experience a sense of autonomy for themselves. Because that is one of the other flow principles that we can, so to speak, identify. Flow principles were identified and researched by a Hungarian scientist, whose name I won’t repeat now because I can’t pronounce it properly. My Hungarian isn’t that good – or is yours better?

00:10:32: I don’t know how that goes, I have to admit again.

00:10:36: So, we’ll include that in the show notes.

00:10:38: Exactly, that’s how we’ll do it; it’s a good idea. I’m not someone who always delves into these topics – these theories, that is. Because in creative work, which is where I originally come from, it’s such a natural state of affairs that we don’t need any principles to guide us; rather, because it’s simply the most natural thing, that’s where the best works of art emerge. And as I said, my background is in theatre creation. So I learnt to write plays, develop plays and do physical theatre, and then Die anderen Geschichten – yes, my business, as you know by now – has also become a much bigger part of my life. But it was still 15 years; it was simply this theatre creation, this making, my main income – my source of income and also my career. If I hadn’t fallen ill, I probably wouldn’t have just ended it like that. The reason I’m telling you this now is that, on the one hand, I can approach the whole thing in a very structured, very clear way. I create my own workplace, I do that. So this autonomy, this feeling of acting autonomously, that’s completely parallel. And the other thing that’s so strong for us is the feeling that I have something to say and I want to bring it into the world, but I translate that by answering the question: What might move others to experience that too?

00:12:15: That’s the really big question behind theatre, particularly the artistic one. Visual art is a bit different; there, it’s more about: I’m expressing myself and hope to inspire you. In theatre, it’s very much about moving others too, getting them to change something, to do something.

00:12:34: And this approach to catharsis – it has something to do with catharsis.

00:12:39: Exactly. And there’s this part in there that I’m now calling: ‘I let myself go with the flow’. I allow my genius to connect with the universe. And it sounds a bit like that now – I have to laugh at it myself, because it’s such ‘woo-woo’ language. But ultimately, it’s still that feeling. And I see this time and again, particularly with managers: they don’t talk about it because it seems so ‘woo-woo’ to them too, yet at the same time they have this experience. Managers, or rather leaders – good leaders are people who have visions. And they have something they know they want to bring into the world. I hope you feel the same way, and if you do, I urge you to name it for yourself. You don’t have to broadcast it to the world, but be clear in your own mind that you have a vision worth living out. And this vision needs that flow from time to time to become something that can be translated for the world, for your production, for your staff. And for that, on the one hand, you need timeboxing; but afterwards – and I’m saying this now because managers tend to skip this part – you need that moment where I allow myself to reconnect with the world first.

00:13:56: So, basically, when I take a break, when I go and get a coffee, when I say to myself, ‘I need to do something else’, I go for a quick walk, or I pop to the loo. It’s just occurred to me now, because Horst Georg Haberl was one of the best practitioners at HUMANIC. He always came in early, and anyone who still remembers him knows he was a brilliant creative mind; he also led one of the best and biggest advertising campaigns back then, and HUMANIC really had, I think, 75% active brand awareness. That means people didn’t need reminding; they simply knew what it was, thanks to the campaign they’d run. He’d come into the office in the morning, get himself a coffee, drink it, and the first thing he’d do was go to the loo with the newspaper – you wouldn’t see him for an hour. He’d go in there, and then he’d get on with his work. He didn’t talk to us much; instead, he’d develop things, check them, and then he’d be off again. So he worked in a very unconventional way back then. That was in the early 80s, so it was still quite a novelty then. It really was a novelty. Exactly, it impressed me very, very much, because I saw that he wasn’t... And of course I’d assumed he was lazy.

00:15:07: He wasn’t, but it was quite clear that this brought him straight to the point.

00:15:13: That was his newspaper, that was his time to, so to speak, get back to creative work, to sort everything out and organise it for himself, so that he could then pass that on to his staff and his team.

00:15:27: And then, as I said, there were those breaks in between, or those briefings. At some point, we had a chat about it. I’d set up a room next to his office with all the promotional materials for Italy. And since I’m a bit of an aesthete, I pinned it all up on the wall. But then I wasn’t happy with it, so I took it all down and started pinning it up again. So I wasn’t finished in half an hour; I spent a day and a half hammering away at his head. At some point he was standing in there, a big man. I, the 16-year-old, was just about to take a breath to give myself a proper telling-off, and then he saw the room and said: ‘That looks really good. Could you stop hammering, though?’ But I was in the flow. I didn’t even notice, I have to be completely honest. That’s really fascinating. So flow is so powerful in creating, in developing. And especially now, with all the transformations and so much uncertainty, being in the flow also gives you a sense of security. Security, even though you’re venturing into new territory like a pioneer.

00:16:29: Exactly, so of course there’s also something happening outside of space and time, if you like. It’s also often the case that you lose your sense of time whilst doing it. And precisely in times like these, in which we currently find ourselves, where there is so much change, where transformations and changes seem to be happening every minute, it’s something that, on the one hand, provides structure – in a positive sense – yet still gives you the freedom to develop freely and allow new things to emerge. It is also the moment when your brain enters a state that you cannot usually bring about so automatically in your everyday consciousness. You are very, very strongly—if you look closely at your brainwaves—in the alpha wave state, where you are in a creative space, where you are developing, where you can let new things emerge, where you can think ahead, where you can think in new ways. And it is also the time when you can work more efficiently and effectively than at any other time. This means that in 2, 1, 2 hours a day, you get as much done as you would otherwise do in a whole day. And where you simply have the opportunity to delve even deeper into the topics, find new approaches, connect new things with one another, have ‘aha’ moments where you think, ‘Right, wow, this has been right in front of me for three days, but I’ve actually never looked at it from this perspective before.’

00:17:50: Or at least I’ve never seen it in a way that I could bring it all together. And yes, I’m familiar with it from the creative scene, or from teams, and to some extent in the hospitality industry too, where you simply notice that there’s individual flow, where a single person is in the flow, and there’s also group flow, so to speak. The smallest group flow is two people working together and exchanging ideas. So I keep getting the feeling, when we’re recording our podcast, that we’re in the flow too. I mean, we often lose track of time in the middle of it and chat about things and come up with topics we hadn’t even thought of before, and we connect new things together that are absolute ‘aha’ moments for us. At least, that’s how it is for me time and again.

00:18:30: I hope you feel the same way.

00:18:32: Let’s really hope that you benefit from this too, and not just us. And yes, what I wanted to say is simply that flow is an incredibly powerful tool for working in innovative, new ways, and for working efficiently and effectively. And what I’d like to add is that one of the most important things for actually achieving flow—I’m going back to the beginning, so to speak—is getting enough sleep, deep enough, regularly and for long enough. Sleep is one of the most important things, so that you’re rested and your brain isn’t in a state of alarm, so to speak. Because when the brain is in a state of alert, it is less likely to enter a state of flow. Anxiety is also something that, naturally, is not conducive to states of flow—up to a certain point, of course. So the question is, is it really anxiety, or is it a sense of uncertainty or an opportunity to break out of it? It can also happen that flow states occur very easily, which you see, for example, in military units. There are reports from the SEALs that they work and operate together in such a way that they feel they are no longer part of the unit, but rather a single, unified movement or a single, unified entity.

00:19:49: And everyone knows what the others are doing at the same time, even though they often describe it as ‘we click into it’ and enter this mode and this state. There’s also a huge amount of research behind it all to drive the whole thing forward, where, of course, the whole process is fraught with anxiety on the one hand, but also involves control on the other, whilst the team’s sense of security is restored on the other hand. In normal business, it’s the case that it’s, of course, hugely important and wonderful when you manage to get your whole team into a state of flow, whether you’re sitting around a table or out in the open air. It’s always a great opportunity to exchange ideas and create a framework where flow can emerge, and where opportunities arise for individuals to practise flow in their everyday and professional lives.

00:20:37: And to wrap things up for today, I’d like to add this: it’s difficult to put what the SEALs and the military do into practice. But where you can try it out is in theatre, in theatrical improvisation, where it’s absolutely essential and where the same thing happens. And we call this fear ‘stage fright’. So even if you want to, or have to, present something important, and have decided to do so – at hearings, for instance, where this often happens – you get the feeling that you’re afraid. And ultimately, you’re excited when you take it seriously. And that’s a great feeling. And that’s where flow can help immensely. So, getting into that state and allowing it to happen again and again, especially when the preparations are already complete, but there are still five days to go until the hearing or the presentation. It’s a challenge to be finished so early, yes. Precisely for this reason: there’s a lot going on in the run-up, and that can build up to a great deal. Then, time and again, you have to go back to it and just make sure that you don’t throw the presentation you already have, or the story you’ve already developed, out the window at that moment, but instead reap the best version and stop letting it ferment any further, and just say, ‘OK, I’ll go through this again now and enjoy this time.’

00:21:54: That’s one reason why many people intuitively feel it’s not always a good idea to be ready five days in advance. I can only recommend three days beforehand, though I don’t always manage it myself. Three days beforehand is great, because then I can go over it again, really get it into my system, and then, when I’m actually performing, whatever the nature of the performance, I can really get into the flow.

00:22:18: That’s exactly it, I completely agree with you, simply because practising it also helps us regain a certain sense of confidence. And if you keep trying, it’s naturally also the case that stage fright is—you’re the expert on this, dear Karola—it’s actually a very positive aspect. It means that we’re fully present and fully engaged. And it simply means that it matters to us when we have stage fright; we do care about the outcome, so to speak. And I think that’s a very, very lovely approach. And it’s also, I’ll call it, a positive fear that we can display from time to time, for things that are important to us, and also, so to speak, to ask ourselves the question: life is showing me now that I do care about what I’m doing right now.

00:23:12: And that’s why there’s a difference: there’s anxiety, there’s fear – they’re two different things. Fear is of something, whereas anxiety runs much deeper and comes from much further down. And what’s linked to anxiety – or rather, anxiety is the prerequisite for something we’d like to explain to you in more detail in the next podcast – is courage. Courage isn’t possible without anxiety. So you need fear in order to overcome it and say, ‘I’m going to do it anyway.’ That would be courage. And with that, we’ll leave you curious about next time.

00:23:43: We hope you’ve taken something away from this episode, and we look forward to you tuning in to our next podcast episode on the topic of courage and being human.

00:23:56: Yes, and if you enjoyed this podcast, why not help us grow by subscribing and sharing it with someone? We’ve got big plans. You can book us for talks or workshops, and you can join our Community of Practice. Coming soon here on this channel. Sackotnik Flucher: Champagne for the soul, clarity for the mind.