Mach ihnen Lust aufs Meer

00:00:05: Karola Sakotnik A wonderful good morning – here we are again.

00:00:08: Eva Maria Flucher We wish you all a wonderful day. We’re delighted once again that you’ve tuned in and are giving us your valuable time.

00:00:16: Karola Sakotnik And today we’ve got something very special planned. Eva-Maria is going to be answering my questions today. I know she’s happy to do so, but the background is this: her book has just been published. And in her book, she does something that I emphasise very strongly with my clients, and that’s strategic storytelling – the umbrella term or theoretical concept behind it. And the point is that we humans have learnt from the very beginning – on the one hand around the campfire and, on the other, whilst telling stories around the campfire. In other words, we’ve shared stories of our experiences; the older generations have passed these on to the younger ones. And, based on the experiences that accompanied the facts, we’ve learnt what needs to be learnt so that we don’t have to repeat all the mistakes from scratch, so to speak. But also so that we can make the most of the positive experiences. And you’ve put that into practice in your book.

00:01:14: Eva Maria Flucher Yes, as you know – or as some of our listeners will also know – I actually studied literature, and books have, of course, been a part of my life right from the very beginning. If you like, storytelling has been a part of our entire human experience, and it’s always easier for us when we package ideas and knowledge into stories, so that we can take them in, bring in the feelings and emotions, and really sense, feel and understand the whole thing. But it’s really much more about taking people on a journey, drawing them into a story, so that they can simply perceive, understand and experience a transformation, a journey of personal development or a journey in its own right.

00:02:06: – Karola Sakotnik It’s so funny because Eva-Maria says she studied literature. I studied theatre creation and physical theatre. And if you’re creating theatre based on physical theatre – ‘Körpertheater’ would be the German term for it – you don’t sit down and write a play; instead, you develop the play through the act of doing, and then write it down afterwards. And that’s something I’ve now adapted for the business world. And you know full well that you don’t always sit down when you’re working on the annual budget or something like that, and experience it first-hand before implementing it and setting it out in an Excel spreadsheet. But I’ve noticed that more and more people are presenting – and indeed, in some cases, have to present, whilst in others simply want to present – what’s on their minds: on the one hand, genuine visions of the future; on the other, everyday stories. These are always the more engaging ones. The important thing is always to present it well. And you know full well that when you present a budget like that, there are people who fall asleep, and there are people who can take a budget – for me, that’s always the epitome of dryness. But anyone who works with budgets knows that the budget is the basis of everything, and everything else is dry.

00:03:23: Karola Sakotnik But why not tell these stories too – that they’re fascinating, that they’re inspiring and that they’re absolutely thrilling? And that’s my background, really. So now I’ll just ask you this: you’ve been on a journey – two people meeting in Africa. You studied in Africa and have questions about life, and by chance—the question is always, does such a thing as chance really exist?—you meet and ask each other these questions. And the funny thing is, they’re also a man and a woman and are slowly growing closer, but not just like that; rather, they’re really grappling with their questions and taking life at a slightly slower pace.

00:04:05: – Eva Maria Flucher Yes, that’s basically how you could sum it up. As you know, I don’t believe in coincidences. You know, the word ‘coincidence’ comes from the words ‘zu’ and ‘fallen’ – so what is meant to be falls to us. And the journey simply arose from the fact that I’m just someone who’s travelled all my life, who’s always been on the move. And as you know, as you’ve already mentioned, I have this African background, if you like to call it that. And it was quite clear to me that many people simply ask themselves these important questions. So, time and again in my seminars and retreats, I get to meet a great, great many people – whether women or men, both are always represented – who, at a certain point in their lives, when they’re very successful professionally, when things are going well, when their plans have come to fruition, when all the budgets have been finalised and all the quarterly plans implemented, they still find themselves sitting at home with lots of questions in their minds, wondering about the meaning behind it all, asking themselves whether this is just a role they’re playing, or whether it’s really who they are. Many of those who ask themselves: ‘Am I doing this for someone else, or am I doing this for myself?’

00:05:16: Eva Maria Flucher And I’ve taken the liberty of sending the protagonist – let’s call her Sophia – on a journey to grapple with questions like these. Simply put, what makes sense to me? Where am I in life? What’s important to me? And where should my life go from here? And is what I have at the moment – the life I’m living, the things I’m doing, my career – is that what I want? Or is there perhaps more to it than that?

00:05:44: – Karola Sakotnik Now I’m curious. I’m the pioneering type by nature; I’ve had to reinvent myself from time to time, and I’ve actually really enjoyed doing so. So for me, life is also a series of coincidences, and – as anyone who knows me will tell you – there have been some coincidences that weren’t exactly pleasant: the deaths of people very close to me, serious illness, losing children. I’ve learnt one thing in the meantime, thank goodness, through all that training in coaching, in training and in leadership. That there’s something I haven’t done, and I’m now curious to know whether you’ve done it. Whenever I’ve reinvented myself, I haven’t always looked at what resources I’m bringing with me. In other words, what is it that I want to keep from the previous stage of my life? Of course, you never completely leave your past behind. In that sense, obviously, I’ve taken things with me. But that’s one of the questions I only asked myself very late on. I’ve always asked myself very early on: What’s in there? What are the opportunities? What do I want to achieve? And as a vision: when will I know it’s a success? And I’ve rarely based that on facts and figures, but quite clearly on experience – which, especially in these times of transformation, is the best way to measure success.

00:07:05: Karola Sakotnik So to say, ‘Right, that’s it, and now I know.’ And also to trust that I might not have the words for it. That’s where I always step in – you need words for it. But you just know when it’s right. But did you manage it, or did Sophia manage it? Yes, I’m just going to put it out there that this has a bit to do with you. Did Sophia manage, right from the start, to bring the resources she already had with her on this quest, on this vision quest?

00:07:37: – Eva Maria Flucher Yes, Sophia has managed that to a certain extent. The thing is, she sets off on this journey in Africa, where she first meets her friend and then a man, with whom she embarks on this journey, travelling right across Africa. And through her connection with Africa and with the natural world there, she has the opportunity to reconnect with her talents and strengths, and bit by bit she is able to remember what resources she has, how powerful she is, and just how much strength and resilience she possesses, and that, to a certain extent, her weaknesses are just as much a natural part of her life as her gentleness, her strength and her vigour – qualities she has, of course, demonstrated and lived out very, very clearly in her professional life. And through her own reflection, through these questions and also through conversations with local people, she finds the right questions for herself – the right questions to help her embrace new solutions, new ideas, new intentions and new perspectives.

00:08:48: Karola Sakotnik Right. So does that mean she’s aware of them, or is she discovering these resources?

00:08:53: Eva Maria Flucher She discovers them bit by bit. It’s a journey, a great life journey across a continent that one would love to experience, where she gradually discovers her resources and has the opportunity, like an explorer, to bring out things she didn’t even believe she had, or didn’t realise she possessed. And through sharing and through silence, through the power of the place – where, of course, Africa and the beautiful natural landscape of southern Africa also play a major role – she has the opportunity to remember once again just how valuable and powerful she is.

00:09:40: Karola Sakotnik Fine. It’s actually quite fascinating. In my experience, I’ve simply noticed that people – and I’d like to share this with everyone who’s setting out on a pioneering journey – you’ll meet people around you who are quite happy for you to give something up, because that then makes room for others to take that space. And in doing so, they automatically dictate what you’re not allowed to take with you. And anyone who falls into this trap simply needs a bit longer. You can’t just forget what you already have, so to speak. Thank goodness. It happened to me that I took on a project having previously been the artistic director of this shipping company. It was Hapag-Lloyd Cruises. I don’t tell many people what it’s like in Germany. It’s one of those big shipping companies – the one that invented cruises and really excels at luxury cruises, both luxury and expedition cruises. And that naturally meant I had a huge budget to manage there. It meant I was travelling all over the world. But it also meant I could focus on my core competencies – namely, how theatre production and, by extension, programming work, and how experience design works. That was the fundamental knowledge I possessed, and that was what I lived off there.

00:11:09: Karola Sakotnik And then I took on a project where that was the main focus of the development work. But my artistic director was so desperate for me not to be any good artistically, but just to be able to do the maths and manage things. And I couldn’t separate the two at all. And at times it was very painful for me, because I always felt he was denying my talent. Because I didn’t see budget management as a talent, but simply as a cognitive skill. And I learnt that at university, because I went back to study later on. But my real talent lies in programming, in the content itself. And it’s different with Sophia. She has a different way of approaching it, from what I’ve observed. And I think it’s absolutely wonderful that you take that on board so naturally. Because that’s exactly what I’d say, if I may offer a piece of advice, when you have to set off on a new path because a big question is looming, because life is pushing you out somewhere, or the system says: ‘Sorry, not you here’ – then something else is on the cards. The important thing is to have that moment where I say: I’m making a decision; I’m taking my time. What do I want to take with me into this new world?

00:12:15: Karola Sakotnik And what am I leaving behind in the old world? But that’s up to me.

00:12:19: Eva Maria Flucher Yes, above all, it has to be a conscious decision. That takes time, of course. It’s not something you can master overnight. There are also people who do it overnight. Of course, what Karola says comes into play very strongly here: that you leave a lot behind along the way and simply don’t take with you the things you believe you can’t do or that aren’t there. What Sophia does, however, is give herself this time. She’s embarking on this journey; she’s taking some time out to ask herself these very questions, because she simply feels that in her old world – where she’s very firmly rooted and also very successful – she no longer asked herself these questions, or at least not often enough, to, let’s say, be happy, to feel fulfilled in what she does. It’s very much about finding out for yourself: what defines me, who am I, who do I want to be, and how do I want to shape my life so that it suits me? And I think it’s also very much about – when you take on a new role, take a new job, and you already had many talents before that – going into a company and exploring all the possibilities there.

00:13:32: Eva Maria Flucher What talents do I actually have? What resources do I already possess? What skills do I already have? And what is something that, for me, is ‘a given’ – in inverted commas – but is actually a great talent, a great skill, which I no longer showcase because I believe it’s there anyway, and I’ve always been able to do it? And I simply observe this in many women and men, in many of the clients we’re privileged to support, that they so often brush aside things they’re truly excellent at, saying, ‘Oh, yes, yes, I can do that too’, as if to say. And when you look more closely, that’s precisely the core competence they excel at. That’s right, yes.

00:14:11: – Karola Sakotnik And what I’ve come to realise – especially now, at a time when crisis is such a major issue – is that with transformation, which is what I’m going through, we draw a distinction between change and transformation. With change, I have a very clear goal, whereas with transformation I have a direction, but I don’t know when I’ll reach it; in other words, I can’t yet define what the goal is, but I’ll know when I’ve got there.

00:14:35: – Eva Maria Flucher A lovely way of looking at it.

00:14:37: – Karola Sakotnik Yes, but of course it’s also a journey into the unknown. And that means you really need to keep a close eye on the path: What do I want to take with me? What do I already have with me? And what do I need along the way that I actually already have? This is a question where I’d say it’s unwise to tackle it without guidance. And it’s perfectly fine to approach this very strategically – not just energetically. That’s absolutely crucial.

00:14:59: – Eva Maria Flucher So I’m right behind you on this. I just think there are certain basic conditions that need to be met. I’m not a fan of saying, ‘Take six months off and do whatever you like.’ It’s a lovely idea, if you can afford to do it. But it always comes down to the context in which I’m placing the whole thing, what options I have, and what resources I have. Again, of course, if I’m a mum of three, I can’t just say overnight, ‘I’m off for six months.’ Well, I could, but the question is: what are the consequences, and am I prepared to live with those consequences? Because every decision in favour of one thing also has consequences for something else. And to really sit down and think about it strategically, to consult with people who are genuine experts in the field, who can support you, who’ll go through the pros and cons with you, who’ll look closely with you at exactly what resources you have. What options do you have? What can you take on? What can’t you take on? What would you like to take on? In principle, anything is always possible – I think we can all agree on that. But the question is: can I live with the consequences in a way that suits me and that allows me to continue living the life I want?

00:16:07: Eva Maria Flucher Or am I leaving behind a pile of rubble or a heap of shards? That’s not what the whole story is about either. And from that perspective, as Karola said, it’s incredibly important that in situations like this we seek support from people who provide such guidance professionally – people who embark on this search with you, who walk this path alongside you, so to speak. You will always walk that path yourself; you’re always allowed to walk it yourself, and, to be honest, you’ll always have to walk it yourself. But it’s really simply a matter of highlighting perspectives, pointing out possibilities, and above all, if someone has perhaps already been through a similar situation, they might have a different perspective on it – or she might have a different perspective on it from the one you might have right now, because you might only be seeing some of the possibilities. When we think about how many people there are on Earth, there are just as many ways to shape your life in this world. When we think about how many stars there are in the night sky – to return to Africa for a moment, where we have that beautiful starry sky, where you feel as though infinity lies before you. These possibilities are always there.

00:17:16: Eva Maria Flucher And it would also be incredibly arrogant of us to assume that we already know all the solutions and that there is no other solution apart from the one we currently believe to be the only one possible. That’s why I – why we – simply invite you to be open to possibilities, to seek inspiration, to gain a new perspective, so that you always have the opportunity to discover something new and different.

00:17:42: – Karola Sakotnik Yes, and for me it’s exactly the same—you can hear me nodding, I hope you can hear me nodding, by the way—I very often find myself asking: ‘Yes, but the decision’s already been made.’ So when I’m interpreting, it’s in an organisational context, yes. One scenario is that I’m doing it for myself, and the other is that I’m a manager in an organisation; the decision has been made about where we’re heading, but I simply realise it’s not working, it just isn’t working. And developing that clarity: what story can I tell now, what is that story that people will be happy to follow? That often doesn’t work on its own. But that’s another story. We’re really promoting our job now. Yes, we’re good at that too. That as well. Yes. But what I’m actually getting at is: there’s a— well, you know, I worked in shipping for a long time, and there they say: if you want to build a ship, don’t show people the plans, but make them long for the sea. And ultimately, you can apply that to marketing, you can apply it to sales, but you can also apply it to visions of the future. And those are a touch more sophisticated, because visions of the future don’t work with slogans.

00:19:00: Eva Maria Flucher Yes, a slogan is, after all, just one way of putting into words what’s already there and where we might want to go. But it’s about sparking that sense of longing – a longing for where we could go, who we could become as a team, as a company, what opportunities we have – and also putting this grand, beautiful vision out there, so that people set about what’s important for the company and for the team with enthusiasm and joy, ensuring, of course, that the figures add up too. Of course, in business, it’s always about the figures adding up to a certain extent. And how can I motivate my team – and myself, first and foremost, of course – because the energy I radiate myself, as you all know, is the energy that’s naturally present in the team to a certain extent. And first of all, can I commit to ensuring that I have an idea – the story I tell for myself – so that it makes sense? And then I can adapt that story so that the team and the company can walk this path together to tell a shared story.

00:20:05: Karola Sakotnik Exactly. And in an organisational context, I’d say that the reason I say the slogan isn’t enough is precisely what you’re saying. Yes, it’s about that longing, and it’s about embedding it in our lives. People can sense exactly when they’re being honest. Yes, I’m sorry to say, we do let ourselves be swayed too – that’s true. But when it comes to our own lives, we can sense exactly when something makes sense. Take *E-Mail for You*, for example – for those who still remember the film – the big bookseller always says, ‘Go for it.’ So have the courage to call a spade a spade. Have the courage to see the conflict through to the end, and simply have the courage to say no. And I always say: imagine a world where leaders refuse to settle for half-hearted solutions.

00:20:58: Eva Maria Flucher I also think that, to some extent, we live in a world where leaders refuse to be radically honest with themselves and radically honest with others. Which doesn’t mean I go around throwing every little thing in everyone’s face.

00:21:10: Karola Sakotnik Radical doesn’t mean brutal; it means being kind, but clear.

00:21:14: – Eva Maria Flucher It’s clear. It’s honest, and it’s about finding the truth – the relative truth. As I think we’ve discussed before, there is no such thing as absolute truth. But the fact is that we humans realise that when you lie to them – if a person has even a basic understanding of life – they can tell whether you’re telling them the truth or not. And if you don’t tell the truth, a certain vacuum develops in the room, causing you to lose trust, causing you to lose authenticity, and consequently creating a space where your team members and staff, to a certain extent, also start to distance themselves from your company and your team. That’s why it’s important to be honest – which, as I said, doesn’t mean I have to tell everyone everything, but rather to make a conscious choice not to take people for fools. That’s how I’d put it.

00:22:06: Karola Sakotnik Exactly. And insist on relevance – for yourself and for others. What I’m saying makes perfect sense.

00:22:12: Eva Maria Flucher Absolutely. And of course, it’s not just about keeping the promises I make to my staff, but also, to a certain extent, keeping the promises I make to myself and adjusting them if things don’t go to plan. Because the strongest word we give ourselves is the word we give to ourselves. Because it’s only when we can trust ourselves and stand by what we’ve promised ourselves that we’re able to project that sense of integrity to the outside world, and that we have the opportunity, together with our team, to achieve great things.

00:22:45: – Karola Sakotnik And all of this in an episode about strategic storytelling. So I hope it’s now a little clearer to you why this is such an important topic, particularly in times of upheaval, in times of crisis, in times when confidence and courage are really put to the test if we are to stay within the system. And I – we – can only urge you to remember that confidence, courage, trust and clarity are the things we need to get through this crisis.

00:23:14: – Eva Maria Flucher Absolutely. These are the cornerstones that will carry us forward, that will take us into the future – a future we will help shape and which we will soon be entering. Although, of course, the future is always unfolding.

00:23:28: – Karola Sakotnik Exactly. You need curiosity for that, and it’s an attitude, a way of life. Curiosity is a way of life. We’re looking forward to next time. Next time, we’ll be talking about power and the marvellous things power can do.

00:23:42: – Eva Maria Flucher Yes, I’m really looking forward to it. It’s a very, very fascinating topic. And I hope you’ve enjoyed this episode too, and that you’ve taken something away from it about storytelling. And if you’d like to find out more about my book, please do let me know – feel free to leave a comment. And of course we’ll include a link in the show notes so you can get hold of the book if you’d like to.

00:24:03: Karola Sakotnik And she doesn’t know right now that I’m going to say this. It’s a truly wonderful journey through Africa. Two people who meet, who really support one another, grow closer – and I won’t give away the rest just yet. But for me, it’s one of those books where, out of sheer enthusiasm, I actually want to read the whole thing in one go, because the story is told so beautifully. And at the same time, whilst reading, I’d stop every two or three pages, take a break and reflect on myself. And I thoroughly enjoyed that.

00:24:40: – Eva Maria Flucher Thank you. You’ve already had the chance to read it, haven’t you?